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Hi, myself and my ex have been separated for 3 years. During that time we have always had a verbal agreement about access which over the years he has abused and also more recently threatened not to return our children home to me. For the last few months my 5 year old son has returned telling me he's been sick in the morning because when he wakes up he wants me and is missing me. My 6 year old daughter has confirmed this but their dad hasn't once informed me of him being sick. My son has always cried when leaving me to go to their house and I genuinely have done everything to try and help both my children to go happily. I have been getting more and more worried and finally this week when their dad asked for extra time over half term I discussed it with my children and my son said he is sick when he's there because he misses me but he can't tell his dad that's what is wrong because he's scared of him and he'll tell him off and that when he's sick he's made to strip his clothes off and his bedding and put them in the washing machine. I don't agree with this, but I have to respect their dad's choices of discipline. I have explained to their dad what he's told me but as usual they went to him last night. He rang me today discussing my son and told me he'd been sick again so he'd screamed and shouted at him and smacked him. He blamed me and again threatened not to return them. I called the police and then when he did arrive with them he locked them in the car refusing to let them out and he and his gf stood outside yelling at me. I came into the house and the police came and eventually he let the children into the house. There's been awful things like this happening for years but I can't allow my children to go through this anymore. I haven't stopped access as I've tried to do the right thing. I just wanted to see what people's opinions are, what you would do and any advice you think could help. Thanks you so much.
Hello cwilliams and welcome along
I agree with GEM, stop the overnight contact for a while, at least. It is not right that your son should be distressed like this.Tell your ex this is just to break the cycle that has been set up with the sickness. If he starts ranting about you depriving him of his rights, stay calm and offer to go to a mediator, say that he has no right to make your son sick then punish him for it. Say that you want the children to come to him and are doing this to improve things.
You need some legal advice as a matter of urgency. Do you have a Residency Order? this is an order that says the children live with you; it is not issued as a matter of course if the parents have agreed things about contact so you maybe don't have one. It strengthens your hand enormously if he does not bring them back. We have a Legal Expert (click) on here that you can email for free though it will take a few days to get a reply.
Now your son, he is clearly anxious but my own approach to it would be not to try to get to the bottom of it straight away, just to give him lots of reassurance (you are safe, mummy loves you etc) and let him relax a little about the situation before you take too much about it, otherwise you risk making him even more anxious.
Have you talked to his teacher about how he is at school, does he show anxiety there/ does he show it at home? if not then that is a real plus as it means it is "only" the being away from you that worries him, and he is only 5 so that is understandable. I wouldn't rush to the doctor with him yet awhile, just see how things go. Concentrate on some really good fun quality time with the children.
In the longer term of course you need to talk to him about coping away from you, is there a special cloth he could take with him with your perfume on, or a magic thing you could do, that you can agree he does first thing in the morning, that means I love mummy, she loves me and I will see her soon? Something like clap three times and say that phrase? Tell him you are saying it too and this gives you a magic connection. You will have to include your elder child in this too, of course; it's important not to leave her out.
How do you feel aabout what GEM and I have said?
I agree with everything Louise just said. Let us know how you're doing
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Hi Both
Thanks so much for your replies they are more than useful and I am so grateful. The advice you have given about daytime contact only I think would be a huge way forward in trying to work out and help my son. Seeing him in this state is absolutely destroying me and both of the children have said their dad has told them it's mummy's fault he's sick and I'm making him ill. He is not willing to believe I am doing everything that I can to try and make things better for whatever reason. It feel as though it makes him feel better blaming me for everything when that couldn't be further from the truth. The implication that I would hurt and use my children against him in any way is so hurtful and untrue I find it very frustrating and there really is no talking to him anymore. In regards to the suggestion of sending something with the children unfortunately this is not an option. The children are never allowed their doll or teddy from their bags when they go there overnight and their bags are taken off them so they can't get them. It is so ridiculous that I am not allowed to pack a change of clothes for them anymore because he doesn't want them wearing clothes from my house (which is his decision) but I have to pack clean underwear for them both to come home in the following day which he then puts their dirty clothes on top of because he refuses to allow them to wear home any clothes that are 'his'. This is why I know that there is no way he would allow them anything from here : ( In fact last night he brought my son home in his vest with his jacket over the top left wide open as his t-shirt had gotten wet so was put in his bag to bring home and he wasn't prepared to put any clothes on him to bring him home from his house. Also, my children have told me on numerous occasions that when they have been brought home he has made them get changed into their clothes from mummys house in the car because they couldn't possibly just wear the clothes from his house home and have them back the next time he's here. My daughter is over 6 yrs of age and apart from the fact they are getting freezing cold in the winter months doing this I don't think it is appropriate and certainly not as they get older. Opinions please? He has also refused to buy beds for my children when they stay with him and my daughter sleeps on an air bed. Is this OK? I am unsure if he needs to be providing her with some more suitable than this. She has been going there for nearly 3 years like this and there seems no intention whatsoever in providing her with a proper bed to sleep in. I'm not sure, does anyone know if this is OK?
I didn't say in my original post but in relation to the way that he disciplines them, I too agree that it is child cruelty to smack and punish a child who is vomiting due to distress but I didn't want to put too much personal feeling into my post and sway anyone's opinions on the situation.
I have decided the way forward is to contact social services and hope that they can give me some professional advice in helping my son and also in the best way to deal with the access. I agree that he should have less until this is sorted out but he is arguing that he should have more because it will help. If he hadn't admitted to shouting and smacking him then maybe I would have agreed with this but not anymore as I no longer think he is showing my son reasonable behaviour ( or my daughter who is very sensitive and deeply upset about what is happening to her brother). He currently has the children one night a weekend overnight and the following day and then on a Tuesday he collects the children from school and has them until 6.30pm (which I think is too late on a school night but he refuses to bring them home earlier). He lives at least 30 minutes away from our house and where the children go to school which is why I have said that an overnight stay in the week is unsuitable. (What do you think?) He always abuses his time to return them home to me and is at least 30 minutes late every time and recently has been over an hour late bringing them home and hasn't even attempted to contact me which has resulted in me being worried that they've had an accident or that he's chosen not to bring them back which he threatens all the time. He has had extra time over the school holidays but when he asks for extra time and states he's completely flexible whatever I suggest is then refused as he's unavailable and then I get demands of having them for a week at 2 days notice which I don't think is fair either. He will then literally intimidate and threaten me and use the children by bringing them home and refusing the let them up the driveway to the house and then says to them 'tell mummy you want to stay with daddy and that she is being mean' until I agree with his demans to which he will then finally let go of their hands. By which time the damage and emotional abuse has already been done to them.
I am sorry to go into so much more detail tonight but there are so many things I would like opinions on and am really grateful for the advice I have been given so far. I will contact ss in the morning and hopefully we can get an initial short term solution to help my children in dealing with things.
Thanks for your support and help, it has helped so much. I have had a really difficult few days and I am glad that we can start to improve on things for all of our sakes
Hi cwilliams
I haven't used your name because admin usually edit them out (if you see this perhaps you can do it yourself?)
From the more details you have provided there is a very big problem with access at this point. My feeling is you need to withold all access until an agreement can be arrived at which is regular and suits the children in terms of time. Him intimidating you into unplanned contact and using the children in this way is absolutely disgusting and should not be tolerated. He should also not be bringing the children back late. If he is unavoidably detained he should be letting you know. This could all be added to an agreement if you went to a mediator.
However, before you go down this route you will need to seek legal advice. If he has PR there is nothing to stop him taking the children from school etc. so I assume there are some preventative measures you can take legally prior to bringing this up with him.
In terms of the specific things you mention, the clothing thing is very obsessive and shows the depths of his control and dysfunction. I have been through a similar situation and I used to try and fight it in different ways but nothing worked. In the end I just had to make it work my end. For example, now this has happened could you include a spare set of clothes in their bag for them to come back in? Could you offer to buy some clothes of his choosing that can live at his house? Should you have to do this sort of thing - no, is this reasonable behaviour - no, but you have to focus on the result you want to achieve. i.e. you don't like them coming back not properly attired.
The two issues you have seem to be that he makes them change in the car and that they might not come home in proper clothing. The first issue, I agree it's strange and that in the future it won't be appropriate but you have to ask yourself right now is it a problem? You will have to pick your battles with him because of the sort of man he is and because you won't have the energy.
With changing in the car, how cold could they really get - is this before they leave his house in which case the car is cold? If so, maybe you could ask him if they could change once they're at yours and the car is warmed up? It wasn't long ago that homes had no central heating. Children woke up in icy conditions and had to get changed. If you think about it like that you might feel better about it. It's not what you and I would do but actually it probably isn't harming them.
With regards the appropriateness, if they are not changing underwear I feel atm it's ok although you will need to keep an eye on this as your daughter gets older. Maybe you could suggest they pop into yours for five mins, get changed while he waits in the car then you give him the clothes back?
The other thing you mentioned is the bed. I think it is absolutely fine for a child to sleep on a temporary bed. Again, it is not something you or I would do but as long as a child has a bed that is the main thing. As she gets older she may start to not want to go to her Dad's because of this sort of thing. At that point he will have to either improve things for her or she will be allowed to vote with her feet as courts take older children's feelings into account.
It sounds like you are feeling very sad for your children that he seems to have so little respect for them. This is indeed a great tragedy for them and for him too as he is the one who will miss out in the end. My advice is to concentrate solely on your relationship with them. Do not try and facilitate their relationship anymore. Obviously don't hinder it on purpose but don't feel you have to do anything for his sake. So for example, he wants to see them extra for some reason, if it suits you and the children you can say yes, if it's inconvenient you say no. You don't worry about it.
Your energy is better spent making things as consistent and calm at yours as possible, and removing your emotions from any discussions with the children. You will be putting in a lot of extra work trying to help the children deal with what goes on at his, you don't need to worry about what he is thinking or feeling.
Do the children have fun otherwise when they are there do you think? If not, you could think of ways to help them deal with the negative feelings they have there which they are clearly not allowed to express. If you are not able to listen to them without becoming emotional, consider instigating a way in which they can get their feelings out. If they're old enough they could write in a journal, or write a letter they don't send. They could draw pictures. You don't have to make a big deal of it but if you make it a regular thing - lets sit down and write about/draw what happened about the weekend, you might get some positives come out too.
The other thing I have found really helpful with my sensitive 6 year old, is playing. Play what they want or instigate a game with teddies/puppets around a hot topic. So your son is obviously feeling powerless at his Dad's (because his Dad controls everything) so play around the idea of giving him control. Something like Simon Says? I found the book Playful Parenting by Cohen really helpful. It basically says if you play with your children at home they will feel less isolated and powerless elsewhere.
I'm not sure whether you should go to SS. I would wait to hear from one of the advisers on here first.
Speak soon
Love Gem
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Posted twice for some reason
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Hi, once again thanks for some fantastic advice and thanks for taking the time to try and help. My major problem at the moment is their dad is due her on Tuesday to collect them to take them for dinner and if it is just my word saying no to access until this is sorted out properly then he will turn up here anyway and just bang on the door and yell until the children are distressed and until he hears what he wants to hear. I know I can call the police but do I really want to put my children through all that? I know this is what he will do because when I have asked to change days of access previously (literally twice in 3 years) he has gone mad and even broken our side gate forcing himself around the side of the house to go around the back screaming and yelling for the children and literally terrorising them. I assume that the police will probably refer us to social services anyway after what happened on the weekend and from what they were told. I just thought if they were in agreement that overnight contact (or all contact) should be withdrawn then they could inform him of this decision and it would be coming from someone else and not me. The police have told me to instruct a solicitor but I have no idea how much this will cost and quite honestly don't have spare money to go down this avenue. I only mentioned the 2 issues above as I wanted to try and explain about how controlling he is and goes to such lengths to try and create a problem with me it's as if he's totally blind to how this affects the children. My only real problem is yes they are changing underwear which is the only part of any of it that concerns me. I've mentioned to them it can't be that cold when changing but I think they play on this fact because they are unhappy that they are being made to do this.
In regards to my relationship with them I am very close to them and to talk to them freely about everything. When my son has come home crying in the past my daughter tells him you can tell mummy everything she loves us and is only trying to help you so please talk to her. It is a comfort to know that as far as I'm aware we have a very honest and open relationship (obviously they are not told anything that is negative or detrimental to them) In regards to school, parents evening was last week and they are both doing amazingly well and are loved and thought of very highly by their teachers and peers so it literally is only when they are at their dad's house. My daughter has said she is only happy to go to daddy's if he never ever does this again but unfortunately I feel this is now becoming the 'norm' and that in fact he will repeatedly do this. We're nearly 3 years in now and at no point did I ever think things would be worse than ever like this.
As far as the children are concerned everything is fine with mummy although they asked repeatedly today what daddy and his g/f were shouting at mummy and that his g/f got back into the car with them and was saying horrible things about mummy and calling me names. She has done this in the past but when I've tried to discuss with their dad he told me it's none of my business what goes on in his house when they are with him. I have tried to explain it is when my children come home repeating swear words that have been used to describe me by his g/f but he isn't interested. I have told them not to worry about any of it and mummy will sort it out and I'm not bothered about it so not to worry about mummy.
He does have parental responsibility and I know that he can literally take them at any time which is another reason I thought if we were covered by social services being involved then he wouldn't be able to until this is all legally dealt with.
Thanks so much for your help. I hope what I've said about my reasons for contacting ss makes sense. Any more thoughts on this would be really gratefully received.
Absolutely - I only said about SS because I have had no experience on that one at all and I wanted someone who did know to advise you.
In terms of Tuesday, as it's not overnight hopefully it will be fine and should buy you some time so I would try and act normally.
The CAB (Citizens Advice Bureau) gave me free legal advice but I don't know if it's the same now or if it is area dependant. In my town you have to go for an initial appointment then you come back for the legal one. In fact, for the inital one you have to go and wait (I got there when it opened). If it's the same with your branch it would be better if the kids could go elsewhere (have you got family nearby etc.?)
I know you can't see it now but it really is crucial you get legal advice. I do understand you don't have the money but you're not wanting anything beyond an initial consultation to find out what you need to put in place. There are solicitors in my town who do an initial meeting for free but even if you had to pay for one session it shouldn't break the bank.
It really is a priority for you to understand where you stand legally. I know what you are saying about wanting SS/police to deal with it or at least get things started, but when he comes after access you will still need a lawyer. There are people on here who understand all this much better than I do so hopefully one of them will post soon.
It sounds like you are doing a great job as Mum. The main thing is they have you - you are their sanctuary and he is their crazy :-) They will be fine as long as they have you.
Re talking - it's hard for children to talk. Children use play the way we use talk - they process their feelings and difficult situations through play either alone or with others. I'm not surprised your LO has trouble talking to you comparitively speaking but it's great you are persevering and creating a lovely environment where they can rely on you and know you are there for them.
Do you have family and friends you can rely on to help? Do you work?
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Hi cwilliams,
I would suggest that before you approach social services you might want to talk over your options with someone who can offer you advice about this situation, Family Lives have a confidential helpline and can hopefully point you in the right direction.
As goodenoughmum has already said you are going to need legal advice at some point, as it sounds like no matter what you say or do is going to have much impact on how your ex behaves towards you and your children. You can try the link Louise has put in for our Legal expert to get some initial advice.
I agree that the no overnight this week means less stress. I would stromgly recommend that you have a visible friend or neighbour with you when he collects them/brings them back as he is less likely to behave abusively if there is a witness.
Social services does not seem an appropriate move to me, all that would happen is they would contact him, go and see him and as there is no actual, hard evidence of "cruelty" they would probably close the case and you would be no further forward and in the meantime have increased the conflict between you. Indeed I have known SS just bat the responsibility back to the parent with care, and not even investigate! I understand that because of his appalling behaviour you feel you want "someone else" to tell him that contact is stopping but truly the only way you can sort this out is with legal help.
Sally has given you a Family Lives Helpline for general support and also there are two free legal helplines you can use, click here to see details
Gem is right, the bed thing is not what you would do but would not be seen as bad.The clothes thing, actually I think it is not the "being cold" that's a problem, but the message that the children are getting...it is completely unacceptable that he wants them to think that the things they have at your house are contaminated in some way and that "his" stuff is only good enough for his house, also that he will not let go of their hands until his demands are met by you.These are the sorts of things you need legal advice about and also you need a Residency Order, which will make it much easier to act if he does not bring them back.
I agree it is worrying to have to pay for this advice and these actions but there is free advice available as above and if you did have to pay a small amount in court fees, this is more important than almost anything that your children are OK. Also is there anyone who would help you with some money for this, I mean a family member. It really is the only way forward that I can see.
hi, if i were u id go and see a solicitor and ur local womans centre where they help people who have been emotionally or otherwise abused
ur ex sounds like a very controlling and forceful person
legal places usually have a free initial consultation- go and get some advice if ur worried about him not returning kids or if kids arent happy about going to him
im glad i did things thru the courts even though it was tressful as i feel like it was a safety net for me n the kids
my ex cant be trusted with anything unfortunately
worried about u- please go and c a solicitor
ive just read ur posts more carefully
if i were u and they were my children i would refuse contact and get legal help and police and anyone else necessary involved! sorry i know thats not very helpful but alram bells are ringling loudly through ur posts
i feel for u n the kids- please stop this viscous circle that ur ex has created
looking at ur posts i think that if i hadnt gone down the legal / police route myself i cud have ended up in a similiar situation
its time to think of u n the kids - dont be scared of his reaction- stand up for what u know is right and what is in the childrens best interests and what will keep them happy , secure and safe
big hugs xx sorry cant be much use
Thanks so much everyone, we've been away for half term so not had access for a while. I decided against social services as I agree I need legal advice immediately. Because of half term and being away I've not yet had the chance to see anyone but am applying for a residency order and going to see my children's head teacher for her advice. No access this weekend as we were away so no issues caused. Am seeing solicitor on Weds for advice and letter to him outlining no overnight until mediation and court route. I will take advice from school and sold on whether or not to stop all access as I'm still trying to do the best for the children and don't want to make things any worse or upsetting for them. As much as my son is a huge worry I have to take my daughter's feeling on-board and she really wants to see him. I think that maybe access but not overnight is the only way to be fair to both of them. I am going to ask if sold can get him to sign a disclaimer for agreed access until we go through court and hope he sticks to an agreement until it's been approved by a judge. Just thought this might be back up in the meantime. We had a wonderful time away and the space has done us all good but now it's back to reality. Thank you so much for all your support I am so glad I posted here, I have had some great advice from some really switched on people x
Glad you had such a relaxing break and it's good to hear that you are seeing a solicitor. Sometimes, just seizing control of a situation helps so much 
Hi, need some advice urgently. Have booked an appointment to see a solicitor on Wednesday but today tried to approach the conversation with both if my children about what they want. My son said daytime only and no overnights but my daughter broke down in tears saying she still wants to see her daddy and even when I tried to explain the overnights wouldn't be stopping forever but only until we could help her brother she got more upset saying she wants her overnight stays to continue. I am in bits this evening not knowing what to do. I can't make a decision that will keep them both happy and I feel like I'm having to make a decision for one child whilst the other one will suffer. Something has to be done about the situation but I have no clue what to do for the best. I'm not comfortable with my daughter going on her own because I'm sure once she is there without her brother she will be distressed. I also don't want my ex coming back and forth to collect them separately because I don't want him anywhere near me after recent events and upset. I am terrified that if I refuse overnight on Friday he will just refuse to bring them home and the children will go through more heartache. Advice anyone? How do I do this in a fair enough manner without it being the wrong decision for one of my children? X
Glad you have a solicitors appointment, hopefully they will have some answers on the way forward for you.
As for contact, for now it may have to be what each of them wants, it is not uncommon for different children to want and have different levels of contact with the other parent, this will of course cause issues as you have already said.
Either that or one of them is not going to be happy with the decision made, you may also find that they change their minds about what they want, once they have experienced having it their own way.
Hi
At 6 years old my son isn't mature enough to be part of a discussion about access arrangements so I don't have any insight into this. My feeling is that your daughter doesn't know what it's going to be like - you as the adult can see ahead and the decision you want to make about witholding overnight is not just for your son's benefit, there are good reasons for all three of you as to why splitting it is not an option.
She may also be worrying about her Dad missing them and wanting to stay over to ease the blow to him. 6 is awfully young to be taking on board such complicated issues. I would personally not discuss it too much more with her, just tell her you have listened to her but you have to make the decision that is right for everyone an that's it's only temporary.
You could always try just her going (although I think that would be really disruptive to everyone) and see if she changes her mind about it.
The thing is, there's no getting away from the fact that you know what's best. It's so hard when you have a sensitive little one. I sometimes tie myself into knots trying to do the right thing and take into account the children's wishes, but I have learnt it tends to cause more distress in the long run.
You are like the financial controller of a company. You have to make unpopular decisions sometimes, but at least the company keeps afloat.
I wish you all the best with whatever you decide to do. Trust your instincts and carry on being an awesome Mummy. We'll be here whatever happens - keep us updated.
Gem
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I wrote an agreement today just putting our verbal agreement on paper for us both to sign. It included my son being allowed to take his toy with him and asking for him to bring them back on time. I asked him to sign before access on Friday night. He's said he'll let me know but it's nit on ny terms all the time and he's coming on Friday regardless! Does anyone know how I can stop him turning up at our home or taking them from school? I am terrified of what he's going to cause next in front of the children x
Hello. you have a solicitor's appointment today and they should be able to advise you what to do. In particular, ask about him not taking them from school and not returning them, they may well suggest the residency order as the way round this and maybe the solicitor can send a letter to the school?
How did it go at the solicitors?
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getting a residency order is the only way u can stop him from removing them also a prohibited steps order if necessary
this is the route i had to go down
also have a contact order which clearly defines when and how he has contact
going to court is slow and painful at times but i found it much easier than dealing with my ex directly as he couldnt be trusted
i now feel like i have a safety net
Hi cwilliams,
This is dreadful. I'm so sorry to hear your children are having to cope with this terrible situation. Does he have Parental Responsibility? I would suggest he doesn't have them overnight - use the sick thing and say that it might only be temporary til things settle down so set a review date with him e.g. 3 months. If he refuses I would withold access entirely until what's best for the children can be properly assessed by someone in authority and access can be arranged through the courts or via mediation.
Who have you told about these incidents? Have you kept a record? If you haven't already taken him I would take your son to the doctors. You could request a referral to CAMHS - my son has been given free counselling to help him this is through a charity in Surrey which CAMHS referred us to.
I know what you mean about needing to respect his discipline - of course people will do things differently, but actually if he can't help it I would class it as child cruelty to smack a child for being sick. I would not be happy for my child to return under those circumstances.
He doesn't sound like he is a calm rational human being. He obviously has a dysfunctional vibe going on in his house. He doesn't seem in control of himself otherwise why would he escalate things the way he does. Who's to say next time he won't punch him?
He's obviously angry because he doesn't have a close relationship with the children and he's wanting to place that blame/those bad feelings onto anyone other than himself so he blames you or your son.
What is your agreement with him? Every other weekend? If so, maybe change it to every Sat or Sun daytime only for a bit.
You have to fight on your children's behalf. Unfortunately I've experienced in my own life that their other parent does not always have their best interests at heart. Sometimes people are so absorbed and overwhelmed with coping with their own life and problems that they forget the kids in their life need their unconditional love and their respect.
Your post made me really sad. I would definitely ask him politely to change the access to be daytime only but before you do, seek out some free legal advice (Citizens Advice Bureau is good) so you are prepared when he says no.
It's horrible to thing of your child being so distressed he is sick. :-(
Good luck with it.
Gem
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