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I know what you mean about the brick wall thing, Family evening sounds a good idea, they might not like the idea in principle but if they give it a chance they may well enjoy it!
Know how you feel Hopeful, about the banging your head against a brick wall, it can feel like that sometimes. On the bright side one out of threes not bad at least your daughter seems to be doing o.k at the moment.
Even though it was not and enthusiastic YES (normal teen behaviour when having to spend time with family) they did agree to the family evening, and i hope it goes well, were you going to cook something nice?
Sounds like your really trying everything to find a solution with son No3, hopefully you can get him to met with the counsellor at some point in the future. 
I am SO glad you had a good evening.
xxx
Something the family joined in with together Hopeful, that can only be good news. Well done. Hope you all have a good weekend. Do you have any plans?
Hi hopeful, thank you for sharing the positives, they are there aren't they.
I think we often talk about the negatives in our lives and the positives don't get a look in. SO, your family CAN spend quality time together without a row, long may it last!
Do family meals not happen because people are in and out at different times? If so, is there a time when everyone is home, so you can do it more often. Not as a special Sunday thing, but as a home/life thing? Perhaps you can tell them how much you enjoyed it and what time should supper be in the future?
What did your son think of Bridesmaids??!! I am not a great fan of chick flicks, but watched this with my best mate and laughed our socks off, thought it was hilarious!! 
Hi Anna,
you do make me laugh! I have no idea, if my son (whichever one of those) has seen bridesmaids! I was watching that with the girls!
Mealtimes don't really happen because everyone's in and out whenever, so a bit tricky. But I will keep working on that.
Next good thing: parents day at the 'alternative curriculum' place - and everyone loves No3 son (ah, ye olde charm, ey). He's doing fine there, so - although I won't count my chickens - I can relax a teeny weeny bit. x
It's nice to know, though, that he gets some accolades
That is good he's settled there. Fingers crossed he'll work hard there.
xxx
He's not bad, really. He can be the nicest, most caring person in the whole world. It's only when he gets a bee in his bonnet that he kicks off... sigh.
Talked to him about the mental health people again last night. He said he makes up his mind to go and he does want to, but when it comes down to it he just can't do it. I've told him it's only five minutes or so of talking and he doesn't have to do talking therapy, he can express through art etc (his new art teacher triggered that, because he's starting to get into the 3Dstuff they're doing) and they will go with what suits him. He's thinking about it again, so any tips to encourage him are welcome!
Oh that's a hard one, Hopeful. What do you think might motivate him? a reward for going?
No idea. will have to think about that one.
In the meantime, here are yesterday's events. (Hope you're sitting down)
About 3:30 there was a knock on the door. It was two (bless them very young) policemen. They came in, arrested no 3 son for suspicion of burglary and theft, searched his room and the shed. Then they took him 20 miles away to the 'local' place of custody - they had me follow in the car as they 'couldn't promise they'd be able to take us back' and they still needed a 'responsible adult' there to interview him. I waited for half hour in the cold as they had said they'd book him in and then come and get me. After that half hour I'd had enough of being cold and went in to see what was going on. Apparently, this was the wrong entrance (I really don't know the town they took us to at all, let alone the police station!) and some nice community officer took me to the right place.
I waited for another half hour or so in a corridor on a tiny bench - at least this was heated! - where a sign informed me everything was being filmed and sound recorded.
Eventually, the DC in charge of the case came and told me he was going to interview No3 son, and if he just admitted whatever, he'd get a warning and that would be that. He had not seen the evidence (apparently the school said he and someone else had broken into the gym and stolen a bag of footballs and had it on CCTV), so if my son denied it, he'd have to look at it and it would take longer, etc. and if he'd done it, he'd have to go to court.
Well, No3 son said, yes they were there, and yes they took a football and played a bit, and then they put it back and went on their merry way. And didn't the DC think it would be visible on CCTV, if he'd gone off with a whole bag of footballs and could he please see the tape. It seems the other boy said the same sort of thing.
Now my son is on bail (but the nice DC said it was ok to take him abroad to my mum's anyhow, bless him, too) while the poor DC (who normally deals with sexual assault and proper break-ins on big scales) has to dig up the tape and look at it. He said that, if it shows my son with a bag of balls, he'll give him the opportunity to change his statement so that it still won't go to court.
While the other boy was interviewed, I was back waiting in the little corridor. My son on the other hand got wined and dined (had sheperd's pie for dinner!) and got a pair of trousers because they took his away (don't know why, they gave them back).
What a kerfaffel! So instead of writing essays and going to sign language, I was bored out of my head waiting most of the time yesterday.
Please can I have a break now?
Hopeful, what a horrendous turn of events! and it sounds as if YOU were put through the mill even more than your boy.
Just a thought: all this business of "just admit it and it won't go any further", you need to check whether a "caution" will be issued and if so, whether that then constitutes a criminal record....just speaking from exerpience of the son of my friend, there.
How are you feeling this morning?
OMG.
Poor, poor you.
xxx
Hi Louise,
I am fine, I was then, too. Yes, this thing would have contributed to a criminal record, and he wasn't really saying 'just admit it and it won't go any further' and especially he wasn't saying it to my son. It's just the gist of how he explained it to me. I think he initially thought that it was probably true and just wanted it off his desk. He was very nice. :-)
This DC will try to get everything sorted by Wednesday because he set the bail for Friday and we're going abroad to my mum's for Christmas on Thursday. But he has already said it's ok to go anyway, so I'm not too bothered.
This thing is not making me feel horrid at all - it's more of a nuisance. The school thing really upset me a) because of what No3 son did (so dangerous!) and b) of the school's attitude and c) because of the worry about his education. I don't often loose it, it has to be quite extreme...
I know, but it can all pile up together to make a teetering column of stress. Ok it sounds as if you have all the info re the police, just sticking my oar in cos of what happened to friend's son. Glad you can go away to your Mum's anyway.
I wasn't complaining about your info re the police! And maybe I'm just still numb because of all the other stuff. Hope your friend's son is ok?
No3 son said the cell etc was horrible and he's never going back there.... So it's done some good!
Oh I know you weren't complaining Friend's son was last year, accused of an assault that never happened, police kept saying just admit it and you will get off with a caution, friend found out about the criminal record thing and said no way....in the end the accuser dropped the charges but not until the lad had been back to the police station to answer bail twice, and had been in a cell overnight.
Hi. I've been reading the chat between Hopeful and others, and have found it very helpful. I have a 14 year old daughter who is exhibiting very similar behaviour. Any time her requests are declined she immediately becomes aggressive - shouting abuse at me and throwing whatever is closest to hand. This is usually food. I am also in rented accommodation ( I left the childrens' father in March ) and I am in despair at the mess she continually makes in a house that isn't ours. As I write, there are crushed crackers and Philadelphia all over the lounge carpet (cream coloured carpet to make matters worse) from her latest outburst.
The stress her behaviour causes to me and her 10 year old brother (whom she mercilessly bullies) is a massive pressure and I am finding it difficult to cope.
I wondered how Hopeful's son no.3 is getting along now, and is there any light at the end of the tunnel?
Any tips that would help to ease the situation would be very welcome.
Hi in despair,
welcome along - Not that I have all the answers.....
There are good days and bad days with my son. This morning he was very tearful for no apparent reason - he didn't know either. He still gets frustrated when things don't go his way, but at the moment he can keep this under control.
Still working on getting him to counselling.
He is a bit happier because at the alternative curriculum unit they work in smaller groups and that means he gets positive attention.
Is your daughter unhappy because of you splitting from your partner? My daughter is also 13 now - she's mostly ok, but has real strop moments and she'll throw stuff and stamp her feet and be rude on occasion (although never food!). I don't really know what to suggest, but it will pass.
I'll have a good think of what worked with my son and what didn't and post again for you! xxx
Hello indespair
Welcome to One Space! Your user name says it all and you must be so fed up of her behaviour that you could scream!
I hope you have managed to read through all of this thread as people have had lots of helpful input. In fact, if you read most of the threads on the Teenager section, not only will you get lots of good ideas but also feel reassured that it is not just you. I think this is really important, as we parents can start to think "Is it ME?" and knowing others are going through similar is comforting. Make sure you get the recommended book as well!
It sounds as if the situation has escalated more and more and now it is time to deflate it. The first thing to say to you is that if you lose your temper or get upset then your daughter has won. And yes, I say "won" because it is indeed a battle. So do you just ignore her while she throws things around? Well, no, you can't. Have a think about what specific changes you want to see (no more than two) and what consequences you could impose if these behaviours do not improve. Remember you have a lot of financial clout while she has no income, and there are the practical things like lifts to places, credit on her phone, grounding and time away from the PC. My son used to say but I need the PC for my homework and I would say never mind, I will phone the school and explain that you have behaved abominably and so you are off the PC and could you have permission to use the school library every lunchtime to do your homework. Of course it never came to that because he was horrified at that prospect!
Once you have your behaviours, write them down and the consequences.Present this to your daughter calmly and firmly. When she continues the behaviour, as she will, you say VERY CALMLY "oh dear, that means that you will have to ......." (consequence) Pretend not to give a hoot, even though you are in agony inside. The key to changing her behaviour is in your hands. The sooner you start to take action, the better as I do believe there comes a time when things have gone too far and the loss of the parent's authority has become entrenched.
Eventually (well, pretty soon!) your daughter will have a massive tantrum re you don't understand etc and THEN is the time to talk with her about why she is so angry and upset, I am thinking a lot is to do with the separation and how it affects her...teens will not see that you are upset or that you have done your best, all they will see is anything that rocks their own boat even slightly.
So...are you up for the challenge?
Hi Hopeful
How are you today?
Hi Hopeful. Just want to say am thinking of you. Such a horrible thing to happen with your son. Hope you're both okay, and really glad you can still go away to your Mums for Christmas. xx
Hi Louise & Hazel & everyone,
I am fine - have been signing (not singing!) carols outside the cathedral this morning - very cold, but great fun.
No3 son seems ok this morning - he's doing jobs to earn some money, so all quiet at the moment (dare I say the q word?!). He said last night that nobody likes the 'bad' friend anymore, because he's still doing all that stupid stuff (like weed and drinking) and everyone else has stopped. Not sure I believe all of it and really feeling sorry for the 'bad' friend - he's not bad, really, he just needs some decent guidance himself. :-(
So good for No3 son, but bad for C. Still, I can't save all the children, can I?
Big hugs to all!
-----
Indespair - Louise is right, the calmer you stay, the better stuff works! Unfortunately, I don't always remember that in time! But do follow all Louises tips, she's really good - actually, everybody is!
Hi Hopeful - thanks for your comments.
Hi Louise - thanks for yours as well. I'll perhaps write down what I expect from her (ie no throwing stuff, and showing more respect) and hope that sets out the rules more clearly. At the moment talking to her just prompts more disrespect and abuse.
I used to lose my temper but found that was just showing I was losing control as well and that's no solution. The lastest tactic I use is to remain calm, but withdraw privileges. I use a system of 'good behaviour earns pocket money' so if she does her chores (only drying up the dishes twice a week, keeping her room tidy and joining in family time) she earns a daily allowance, paid at the end of each month. If she exhibits bad behaviour, ie violence towards her brother, bad language, etc then money is deducted.
Unfortunately I have tried grounding but that doesn't work because she just goes out anyway.
At the moment she has no use of the PC and has had her mobile confiscated. Again, we have hit a probem because her best school friend (a girl whose influence on her and own lack of respect I am sure are making the situation worse) has given her a new phone including credit.
I took her to my GP a few months ago to explain how the problem was escalating betond my control but he seemed to think this was normal teenage behaviour and couldn't guarantee that a referral to experts would go ahead. I've heard nothing since.
I have also made her school aware of the problem (she started truanting last year whenever we had had a disagreement - she admits this was to 'get back at me') and they have arranged for a mentor to be made available whenever she needs to talk. This seemed to calm her down for a time, but now things are just back to where they were, sometimes even worse.
My friends say all I can do is ride the storm and wait for this phase to pass. That's easier said than done when she tries to control every situation in the house and family.
Another thing....and this is good news!!! (sorry to be rabbitting on)
The incident with the Philly and crackers... I announced this morning that as my son had been so good recently he deserved a treat. I will take him to the cinema followed by a meal out this afternoon.
I have left the food mess where it is and told my daughter I expect her to clear it up(just noticed half a tub's worth of Philly on the window like a massive bird dropping as well as what's on the carpet).
I said that if she cleans up then when we leave at 2pm she can come with us.
Guess what? In the last 2 minutes I heard her getting out the hoover and clearing up. Result!!
Well done!
My No3 son cleared up the whole kitchen for some pocket money.
I really think the clearer and calmer the instructions are, the more they follow. (They actually have said that they don't like me telling them to do more than one thing at a time, and if I keep that in mind, it's a bit easier).
Hang in there, you can do it! :-) x
Well done, in despair..... I would also be inclined to say something along the lines of "oh dear, all the food is on the floor, there is no dinner now" and see what happens.
Is is normal teenage behaviour? Well yes and no. Almost all of them have a tendency to be like this, in one sense we have to learn to ignore some dreadful things, but on the other hand there are certain basic rules. Glad school are helping out with a mentor. Stay with us.
Ooh Hopeful signing carols, you mean sign language? aren't you clever?
I agree with both of you that the "friends" can be a very significant factor 
I am glad that you both had a bit of positive there...
Yes, Louise, sign language. We do it every year. It's great fun! :-)
No3 son was supposed to stay over at 'bad' friend's house tonight, but came home saying the friend didn't meet where they were supposed to, so he decided not to. Bless him.
Hopeful that's brilliant about the sign langauge .....and a relief about the friend.
The friend. hm. His parents split up. So he went to live with his nan. Then with his mum. Then with his dad. Then with his mum. Then with an aunt. Then with his nan. Then with his dad. Then mum moved back in. Then mum moved out again. dad new girlfriend. All within the last 18 months. No proper support (mum mental health problems, dad mostly angry).
I really really feel sorry for him. He is such a good guy beneath all that. :-(
Ah yes. My son has a friend like that too. Top of the class till he was about 13/14. The dad left and mum got a new bloke, and new bloke didn't like him so made him leave (how the mum could do this, I do not know!) and then he went to his nan's but he tried to reconnect with biological dad who did not really want him either. Result: boy violent and in trouble, always in fights, didn't take the exams which he could have passed with flying colours, now heavily into drugs, makes me want to weep. The thing is that teens with good parenting still struggle a lot, so how can they cope without even that?
See, so I would love to save him, but I can't. :-(
Poor thing...
Just a quick update: we came home to a letter from the police saying that there was no evidence to prove that No3 son had taken a whole bag of footballs from that wretched school (I really really want to do something to that head mistress!!!! Talk about 'bringing someone into disrepute' which is part of why she kicked No3 son out. Grrrr). No3 son just laughed about it though.
He's gone off to see troubled teenager mentioned above. Sigh.
Praying that he'll see lots of sense and be really sensible this year!
That is good - but that headmistress does need a slap! Letters to the governors?
Hope you had a good time away.
Best wishes for the new year - I do hope its a sensible one when it comes to our children... xx
Am I lining up to slap the headmistress!
Seriously though, I would write to the governors as Sparkling suggests. Doesn't one live next door Hopeful, or is that for another school? The Headmistress shouldn't have accused him without firm evidence.
Hope 2012 is a good one for you all.
Well, she thought she had evidence - showing him go into the building, which he is quite happy to admit (he says he needed the loo). But nothing to show him coming out carrying ten or so footballs. He doesn't even like football....
I don't think the governors would do anything, after all, they agreed to kick him out, didn't they. Next door used to be a governor for a different school.
I'll let this go (unless I meet her in a dark alley) because my daughter still goes to the school. She has told me recentley that teachers used to get in her face about No3 son's behaviour. Not good. But she doesn't want to change schools - all her friends are there.....
That's also bad on teacher's part, getting on at your daughter. It has nothing to do with her after all. Of course these things do happen, but it shouldn't. It's really difficult when you want them to change schools but they don't want it. When do yours go back to school?
Just slap her then...
I know you can't and its not helpful at all, but I just do feel strongly that the matter does need to be followed up.
As for the teachers speaking to your daughter about her brother. That needs to stop. I'd also put that in writing.
I do feel its blooming disgraceful, and can't tell you how sorry you face this with the school.
This sounds so frustrating Hopeful, I bet you are infuriated, this is your sons reputation and education on the line. Would you consider writing a personal letter to the headmistress sharing your irritation? This would be far more poignant and build bridges hopefully than any sort of retaliation. Maybe you could ask her to write a letter of apology to you and your son, this would then show your son how to apologise when you are wrong.
sparklinglime and hazeleyes - No one is slapping a headmistress (I have firmly put Louise's glasses on), however frustrating they may be, they have their hands full and mistakes are made. I agree that a letter of complaint should be written to the governors and maybe even your MP?
I'm all in favour of the slapping! 
No3 son doesn't want to go back to the school anyway. My daughter says the teachers don't do that anymore since he's left.
The staff at the school seem to all be a bit scared of the head - I might try the demand an apology thing, but I am really worried she'll keep being unprofessional and make my daughter suffer for it.
I'll mull it over for a couple of days and see....
Slapped wrist from Anna 
Am taking myself to the quiet corner to reflect 
Hopeful, you could be right there. If you ask for an apology, she could 'take it' out on your daughter, unprofessional as that is, it does happen. It's a tricky one isn't it, and yet she should be told that she was in the wrong.
I have no guilt - I did say I knew she couldn't really...
But it is frustrating. You should be able to expect the Head to be professional. However, the headmistress at the primary school was rather unprofessional with youngest which is still having repucussions with other children in the secondary school.
Thank heavens your son was vindicated, Hopeful. I agree she owes him an apology. I bet if he accused HER of theft she would expect one!!!!
I have wrested my glasses back from Anna and am keeping a beady eye out for any slapping tendencies. However, my own inclination would NOT be to let sleeping dogs lie but to put in a complaint. Sorry, I am such a Victor Meldrew.
You would have no guilt Sparkling, perfect people don't 
Hope all okay your end Hopeful.
Louise/Victor, one of the same person I think
Yes, all fine this end :-)
Louise, what do I do though, if they start on my daughter? It's a bit of a dilemma...
I understand your concerns for your daughter, I really do......but does that then mean that families have to take any old treatment because the person might then bully others in the family? I would imagine that it would make her treat your daughter with kid gloves, actually, but that is just my hunch, not based on any factual evidence....
Son No3 update:
The head of the centre where he now goes to school called me in for a meeting. She had had a letter from the hospital re mental health to assess him for more support (which in turn would be Cahms who I talk to already).
She said she was taken aback by this because usually this is for girls who are pregnant/teenagers heavily involved in drugs etc etc. and that my son is not displaying any signs of this being called for. She says he talks to her about stuff and to one of the male teachers and to other students (especially one who was part of twins and the mum left him and took the sister and is refusing to even acknowledge him since then! Why do people do that to children???!!!!!).
Anyway, he seems to be talking to people and he's a lot happier, which is great! :-)
Update:
Tiny little bit of light: No3 son went out, but came back within an hour (seeming very unhappy, but as usual wouldn't talk about it).
Then something very rare happened: we ALL had dinner TOGETHER! And everyone was friendly with each other. So I dared suggest we play a game together after dinner and we DID. There were no arguments or anything. Son No3 said he wasn't good at this particular game, so I kind of deliberately lost (another thing I would normally never do) and made a bit of a thing about loosing, too. Daughter caught on and rubbed it in (bless her). They even wanted to play a second round (which No3 son won fair and square).
I also made a big point about how much I enjoyed everyone being together and doing something together.
Ergo I am a bit more hopeful again (pun intended this time).
Thought, seeing people read my moans, they can read the good stuff, too.... :-)